Getting Tight Drum Sounds

[Hush Soundz]

Getting Tight Drum Sounds

I struggle with this as well. the information that was provided was very helpful
you can view my work here to listen what im talking about.

http://thehushcamp.bandcamp.com

[Hush Soundz]

Getting Tight Drum Sounds

[QUOTE=dkelloway;13880]Bwest, welcome to our boards!

For me, there are 3 ways that I would typically find drum sounds. These are 1) dig for drum sounds on vinyl 2) get them from sound modules 3) sample them from cd's or mp3's.

You asked if getting tight drum sounds is it about picking the right sounds? ABSOLUTELY. However, I feel that you need to pick the drum sounds that are within your beatmaking "range". If you have a particular sound in your library that doesn't seem to go with all the other sounds, it's probably wack. As soon as your start to force sounds into your beats, that is the moment when you will probably realize that they are wack. For example, if I tried to use a "Sexual Healing" -like snare on one of my beats, it would probably sound wack b/c it goes against what I'm trying to accomplish, you dig?

What equipment are you using? The process of getting good drum sounds is very different depending on if you are working within a hardware or software environment. For example, if I wanted to make a custom drum sound in software, this is what I would do.

1) Find my "Ultimate Break Beat Series" vinyl record, and record the drum phrase that I would like to sample. I will run it though my mixer to "treat" the sound before it goes into the PC.

2) Once inside my PC, I will sample these drums in mono, and then I will chop the kicks/snares/hats etc... that sound good to me.

3) Once I have them loaded as individual hits, I will use compression, EQ, and reverb in the signal chain (in that order). I will tweak these until I get the desired sound. Depending on the record, you might not have to use many effects because the drum might be EQ'ed properly to your liking (it also all depends on the context in which you're using the drum sound)

4) If the sounds still aren't fat enough for my liking, I will dig for more kicks/snares/hats to layer with one another. I will send each kick or snare to it's individual channel where I can EQ separately. For instance, say I am using the "Impeach The President" kick, and I really like the knock it gives, I might EQ some of the lows out of it, and increase the "knock" by tweaking with the filters. Then, say I find the "Funky President" kick (which I feel has lots of low end) I will EQ the highs out, and increase the lows. I will then layer the two drum hits on top of each other and I will tweak the pitch until they sound right together. Sometimes I also add a little "stutter" kick after the main kick to add a bit more "bump" to the kick.

5) once that is done, and the kick feels right in context of the beat, I will mute all the channels, and sample my own "custom" kick, and I will save it in my files along with the original "Impeach The President" and "Funky President" kicks.

Hope this helped

[Upright]

Compression, Parametric and Graphic EQ'ing is all you need. No fancy presets, and no special software. Just trust your ear.

No doubt fam,..no doubt.

[dutchmasta]

Compression, Parametric and Graphic EQ'ing is all you need. No fancy presets, and no special software. Just trust your ear.

[Upright]

Learn to use compression and EQ. So with compression you'll squash your kick/snare and then apply some sort of make-up gain (volume increase) to get the kick/snare back up to the correct volume. I almost always apply a little EQ boost in the 1k-3k range on my snare after compression...this are seems to be where the "crack" of the snare is at.

[adoan001]

I personally use Time Stretch when I'm doing Post production work (sound FX for movies) because it helps keep timing/pitch, but that's the only time I really use time stretch/elastic audio. My "time stretching" is typically done on the MPC by Up pitching or down pitching whatever I have on the pads to meet a certain length or just change the sound. The only difference is that this isn't really time stretching because it speeds up or slows down what you pitch. In Pro Tools/Cubase nowadays they have things like elastic audio, so you can create warp points (just like Recycle/Ableton) and it is able to adjust the loop to the tempo you set without changing the pitch. Depending on how far you go up or down with the tempo, the loop you're stretching could sound right or real choppy. You might apply the elastic audio rhythm to a track in pro tools and be very pleased, till you pull the tempo down far enough that the kick happens then a second later the hi-hat etc.

Now that that's explained, (I did so so everyone can understand what the difference is between time stretch and pitch shifting), Recycle has a similar but different style of time stretch. It's more of "expanding the tails of your slices" then time stretching, because when you throw a sample in Recycle and create slice point and put it into a program like Reason, it uses the now longer tails to compensate for tempo adjustments. It doesn't change the pitch it just helps match for timing in the event that you do alter the tempo. I only use that for two reasons, 1) corrective 2) the extended tail sound is cool. I personally want to hear the pitch alter the speed of the sample in most cases, not necessarily keep it at it's original tempo. The flip side of the time stretch is that it works the other way too. Instead of stretching the tails, you can make the slices super tight by shortening the decay and turning the stretch to 0%. If you play the whole loop it will sound choppy, but the individual hits will sound on point.

The way the MPC pitch shifts is great because if you have ever tried to do this in pro tools, you know that you can only go so far or do it so much before the sound is now destroyed and riddled with artifacts. The MPC and programs like SoundHack do some of the illest pitch shifting handsdown, and that is how I handle my drums to fit. I have used elastic audio/warp point features before for samples and other things, but it's more in moderation then anything else. I don't like the idea of the tempo controlling the sample/sound like Patch Phrases. That is a really good feature, the Patch Phrasing on the MPC, but it's only really useful when using the whole loop, something I don't typically do. On the MPC I can pitch something down by -36 and be able to use it without it syncing to tempo. As far as making it sound unnatural, yes and no. If you timestretch then you can get it to sound like that same loop is being played at a slower/faster tempo. Which up to a certain point will sound very natural. But when you pitch shift, things can be slightly bigger/smaller hit depending on +/- pitch. If you do it excessively it can become a whole new sound which is something I totally support doing. I feel that Pitch Shifting should be applied to slices, and time stretching to loops. If you're looking for natural you might as well sample an actual drum kit. Since I actually mic'd up a drum kit and did that, I can tell first hand that while those "real" drum sounds are great, specifically the smaller percussion (tambs, hats etc), it can become real "Eagles" sounding. Not much character, but definitely it's own sound.

In short, there is a huge difference in time stretching and pitch shifting. I like to pitch shift for creative purposes, and time stretch for corrective purposes. At present I am good enough at chopping samples that time stretching is just a "dusty tool" in the toolbox as I find slicing/pitch shifting more effective for what I am doing.

Sidenote to bwest, when EQ'ing, you should try this trick called search and destroy. Take whatever sound you are trying to EQ, pick one band of the eq with all the others off, and make the Q as tight as possible. Then boost as much as possible. Now slowly sweep through the frequencies till you hear the resonant frequency. You're gonna hate me for saying this, but when you hear it you'll know ahhaha. I wish I could say it better then that, but you just have to hear it. When you find the resonance or unwanted frequency, (for snares it's typically the ringing), you then cut till that sound is no longer apparent in the mix. Keep your cuts somewhat light so that the areas around them are not greatly affected while still removing the unwanted sound. This is called notch filtering. This is a great tool for getting your drum sounds to be 1) better sounding 2) more your own sound 3) sit in the mix.

awesome post man, this cleared up alot of confusion i had, cant wait 2 get home from work and put it to use

[alex1972]

this was a very informative and good thread !
i am also tryin' to find my way in this era of drum sounds / layering.
thanks !

[YABBA]

a little distortion on drums works wonders something like 'antares tube' or 'vintage warmer' especially on snares

[MidWest Authority]

yea its pickin the right sound from jump street...and if you decide to sample try to catch what ever sound you want by itself.....with out any other drums or instruments on top of it.....also u can try stackin a lite kick over ur 808...i do it all the time.....makes ur beat strong....

[dafingaz]

No problem. Just use those samples to create your own unique sound.

[bwest]

good look man... i've been trying to layer all the sounds in the mix and i cant seem to get ones i like too much...

[dafingaz]

Once you find you drum sounds that you like, use them to make your own. For example, just take one day, or even a couple of hours going through your sounds. I will use ProTools as an example, but you can pretty much do it however you want. Open up a ProTools session. Load up about 4 or 5 kick drum sounds. Play them individually. Then play two of them at the same time. If you like the way it sounds, save it and you have just created your own kick. It doesn't stop there. Next, mess with some eq or effects such as distortion or reverb. Save everything you like as a new drum sound. Maybe add 3 kicks together and add eq and fx to 1 of the kicks. Throw in a hi hat to see if you like how the hi hats blend with the kick. This is essentially layering, but using layering to create your own custom sounds, even from sampled sounds. Just try it out for an hour and see how you like it!...

[Castro Beats]

re-recording certain sections of the drum framework with timing correct turned off; inserting elongated sound-stabs where the timing wasn't quite *right*, etc.

It's things like this I feel people don't do anymore, thus giving us the listeners the same bounce on every beat. I believe in the practice of no quantize, not on everything per say, but things that you can apply it to without it messing up your down beat. Definitely on the same page.

BWest, no problem man, I'm glad I can help.

[bwest]

bwest,

Did you layer drum sounds in the mix, are did you layer some drum sounds, prior to inserting them into the beat?

—Sa'id

After I listen to them to see if it sounds like what i'm looking for... its always in the mix....

Sidenote to bwest, when EQ'ing, you should try this trick called search and destroy. Take whatever sound you are trying to EQ, pick one band of the eq with all the others off, and make the Q as tight as possible. Then boost as much as possible. Now slowly sweep through the frequencies till you hear the resonant frequency. You're gonna hate me for saying this, but when you hear it you'll know ahhaha. I wish I could say it better then that, but you just have to hear it. When you find the resonance or unwanted frequency, (for snares it's typically the ringing), you then cut till that sound is no longer apparent in the mix. Keep your cuts somewhat light so that the areas around them are not greatly affected while still removing the unwanted sound. This is called notch filtering. This is a great tool for getting your drum sounds to be 1) better sounding 2) more your own sound 3) sit in the mix.

Thanks Castro that makes sense and i've done it before but it wasnt something that i used strategically or really knew what i was doing.... i'll add that to my "things to use"

[Sa'id]

I personally use Time Stretch when I'm doing Post production work (sound FX for movies) because it helps keep timing/pitch, but that's the only time I really use time stretch/elastic audio. My "time stretching" is typically done on the MPC by Up pitching or down pitching whatever I have on the pads to meet a certain length or just change the sound. The only difference is that this isn't really time stretching because it speeds up or slows down what you pitch. In Pro Tools/Cubase nowadays they have things like elastic audio, so you can create warp points (just like Recycle/Ableton) and it is able to adjust the loop to the tempo you set without changing the pitch. Depending on how far you go up or down with the tempo, the loop you're stretching could sound right or real choppy. You might apply the elastic audio rhythm to a track in pro tools and be very pleased, till you pull the tempo down far enough that the kick happens then a second later the hi-hat etc.

Now that that's explained, (I did so so everyone can understand what the difference is between time stretch and pitch shifting), Recycle has a similar but different style of time stretch. It's more of "expanding the tails of your slices" then time stretching, because when you throw a sample in Recycle and create slice point and put it into a program like Reason, it uses the now longer tails to compensate for tempo adjustments. It doesn't change the pitch it just helps match for timing in the event that you do alter the tempo. I only use that for two reasons, 1) corrective 2) the extended tail sound is cool. I personally want to hear the pitch alter the speed of the sample in most cases, not necessarily keep it at it's original tempo. The flip side of the time stretch is that it works the other way too. Instead of stretching the tails, you can make the slices super tight by shortening the decay and turning the stretch to 0%. If you play the whole loop it will sound choppy, but the individual hits will sound on point.

The way the MPC pitch shifts is great because if you have ever tried to do this in pro tools, you know that you can only go so far or do it so much before the sound is now destroyed and riddled with artifacts. The MPC and programs like SoundHack do some of the illest pitch shifting handsdown, and that is how I handle my drums to fit. I have used elastic audio/warp point features before for samples and other things, but it's more in moderation then anything else. I don't like the idea of the tempo controlling the sample/sound like Patch Phrases. That is a really good feature, the Patch Phrasing on the MPC, but it's only really useful when using the whole loop, something I don't typically do. On the MPC I can pitch something down by -36 and be able to use it without it syncing to tempo. As far as making it sound unnatural, yes and no. If you timestretch then you can get it to sound like that same loop is being played at a slower/faster tempo. Which up to a certain point will sound very natural. But when you pitch shift, things can be slightly bigger/smaller hit depending on +/- pitch. If you do it excessively it can become a whole new sound which is something I totally support doing. I feel that Pitch Shifting should be applied to slices, and time stretching to loops. If you're looking for natural you might as well sample an actual drum kit. Since I actually mic'd up a drum kit and did that, I can tell first hand that while those "real" drum sounds are great, specifically the smaller percussion (tambs, hats etc), it can become real "Eagles" sounding. Not much character, but definitely it's own sound.

In short, there is a huge difference in time stretching and pitch shifting. I like to pitch shift for creative purposes, and time stretch for corrective purposes. At present I am good enough at chopping samples that time stretching is just a "dusty tool" in the toolbox as I find slicing/pitch shifting more effective for what I am doing.

Sidenote to bwest, when EQ'ing, you should try this trick called search and destroy. Take whatever sound you are trying to EQ, pick one band of the eq with all the others off, and make the Q as tight as possible. Then boost as much as possible. Now slowly sweep through the frequencies till you hear the resonant frequency. You're gonna hate me for saying this, but when you hear it you'll know ahhaha. I wish I could say it better then that, but you just have to hear it. When you find the resonance or unwanted frequency, (for snares it's typically the ringing), you then cut till that sound is no longer apparent in the mix. Keep your cuts somewhat light so that the areas around them are not greatly affected while still removing the unwanted sound. This is called notch filtering. This is a great tool for getting your drum sounds to be 1) better sounding 2) more your own sound 3) sit in the mix.

Castro,

Excellent breakdown! Bravo!!!
I particularly like your explanation for when, how, and why you use pitch shift and time stretch: "...pitch shift for creative purposes, and time stretch for corrective purposes;" and "Pitch Shifting should be applied to slices, and time stretching to loops."

I certainly see the advantages to this approach. I'm sure that you probably even have found some ways to use time stretch creatively as well...
For me, I've practically never used timestretch on loops; I have, however, used it on various sounds that I wanted to elongate and sustain, but that's about it.

One reason that I try to avoid timestretch, and, instead, rely more on tempo, is because of control. Part of my approach—especially when it comes to sequencing and arranging—is to try and *control* all of the musical elements that I use, in a way that encourages me to rely on my DJ background. Timestretch is certainly a great tool, and you're are absolutely right: As far as correction goes, it can smooth out sound flaws and time issues.

When I went through my experimental phase with timestretch, I learned how to *drag* faster tempos and *push* (shuffle) slower tempos. However, I also soon figured out how to do the exact same thing, by doing things like modifying the tempo; re-recording certain sections of the drum framework with timing correct turned off; inserting elongated sound-stabs where the timing wasn't quite *right*, etc. Thing is, I never want my drums to sound *perfect*, I just want them to *move* and *feel* right. Also, I should mention that at the time when I was experimenting with time stretch, I didn't know if I was on the right course or not; I just knew that I didn't like *relying* on time stretch as some others. Then I spoke to DJ Premier about it, and he told me the instances in which he liked to used timestretch. Since I was using it similar to how he described his use of it, I continued my move away from it, as my drum frameworks had already taken on the sort of swing and shuffle that I like. Even still, if I'm making a beat and I believe that timestretching something will be useful, I won't hesitate to rock with it.

—Sa'id