Getting Tight Drum Sounds

[Sa'id]

I made a new beat i really like and the drum sounds are better.... i layered some drums and got em sounding satisfying but they still sound thin... and sort of "apart" from the rest of the mix

bwest,

Did you layer drum sounds in the mix, are did you layer some drum sounds, prior to inserting them into the beat?

—Sa'id

[Sa'id]

Outside of listening to what tight drums are, there some useful tools to help accomplish collecting drums. The MPC obviously, they got this thing called JJOS which is an operating system that apparently offers more features through the entire MPC specifically when chopping samples. If you were doing this on a computer I would recommend Recycle. It offers compression, eq and time stretch SEEMLESSLY. A sensitivity meter creates slice points that you can adjust, lock, loop BOOM! Ahah, it is an amazing tool for chopping samples, both drums and other.

Castro,

How often do you use timestretch on your drum sounds, and what ways do you use it for your drum sounds?

—Sa'id

[dkelloway]

Timestretch drum sounds? interesting. Wouldn't that make them sound un-natural though?

[Castro Beats]

I personally use Time Stretch when I'm doing Post production work (sound FX for movies) because it helps keep timing/pitch, but that's the only time I really use time stretch/elastic audio. My "time stretching" is typically done on the MPC by Up pitching or down pitching whatever I have on the pads to meet a certain length or just change the sound. The only difference is that this isn't really time stretching because it speeds up or slows down what you pitch. In Pro Tools/Cubase nowadays they have things like elastic audio, so you can create warp points (just like Recycle/Ableton) and it is able to adjust the loop to the tempo you set without changing the pitch. Depending on how far you go up or down with the tempo, the loop you're stretching could sound right or real choppy. You might apply the elastic audio rhythm to a track in pro tools and be very pleased, till you pull the tempo down far enough that the kick happens then a second later the hi-hat etc.

Now that that's explained, (I did so so everyone can understand what the difference is between time stretch and pitch shifting), Recycle has a similar but different style of time stretch. It's more of "expanding the tails of your slices" then time stretching, because when you throw a sample in Recycle and create slice point and put it into a program like Reason, it uses the now longer tails to compensate for tempo adjustments. It doesn't change the pitch it just helps match for timing in the event that you do alter the tempo. I only use that for two reasons, 1) corrective 2) the extended tail sound is cool. I personally want to hear the pitch alter the speed of the sample in most cases, not necessarily keep it at it's original tempo. The flip side of the time stretch is that it works the other way too. Instead of stretching the tails, you can make the slices super tight by shortening the decay and turning the stretch to 0%. If you play the whole loop it will sound choppy, but the individual hits will sound on point.

The way the MPC pitch shifts is great because if you have ever tried to do this in pro tools, you know that you can only go so far or do it so much before the sound is now destroyed and riddled with artifacts. The MPC and programs like SoundHack do some of the illest pitch shifting handsdown, and that is how I handle my drums to fit. I have used elastic audio/warp point features before for samples and other things, but it's more in moderation then anything else. I don't like the idea of the tempo controlling the sample/sound like Patch Phrases. That is a really good feature, the Patch Phrasing on the MPC, but it's only really useful when using the whole loop, something I don't typically do. On the MPC I can pitch something down by -36 and be able to use it without it syncing to tempo. As far as making it sound unnatural, yes and no. If you timestretch then you can get it to sound like that same loop is being played at a slower/faster tempo. Which up to a certain point will sound very natural. But when you pitch shift, things can be slightly bigger/smaller hit depending on +/- pitch. If you do it excessively it can become a whole new sound which is something I totally support doing. I feel that Pitch Shifting should be applied to slices, and time stretching to loops. If you're looking for natural you might as well sample an actual drum kit. Since I actually mic'd up a drum kit and did that, I can tell first hand that while those "real" drum sounds are great, specifically the smaller percussion (tambs, hats etc), it can become real "Eagles" sounding. Not much character, but definitely it's own sound.

In short, there is a huge difference in time stretching and pitch shifting. I like to pitch shift for creative purposes, and time stretch for corrective purposes. At present I am good enough at chopping samples that time stretching is just a "dusty tool" in the toolbox as I find slicing/pitch shifting more effective for what I am doing.

Sidenote to bwest, when EQ'ing, you should try this trick called search and destroy. Take whatever sound you are trying to EQ, pick one band of the eq with all the others off, and make the Q as tight as possible. Then boost as much as possible. Now slowly sweep through the frequencies till you hear the resonant frequency. You're gonna hate me for saying this, but when you hear it you'll know ahhaha. I wish I could say it better then that, but you just have to hear it. When you find the resonance or unwanted frequency, (for snares it's typically the ringing), you then cut till that sound is no longer apparent in the mix. Keep your cuts somewhat light so that the areas around them are not greatly affected while still removing the unwanted sound. This is called notch filtering. This is a great tool for getting your drum sounds to be 1) better sounding 2) more your own sound 3) sit in the mix.

[dkelloway]

I personally use Time Stretch when I'm doing Post production work (sound FX for movies) because it helps keep timing/pitch, but that's the only time I really use time stretch/elastic audio. My "time stretching" is typically done on the MPC by Up pitching or down pitching whatever I have on the pads to meet a certain length or just change the sound. The only difference is that this isn't really time stretching because it speeds up or slows down what you pitch. In Pro Tools/Cubase nowadays they have things like elastic audio, so you can create warp points (just like Recycle/Ableton) and it is able to adjust the loop to the tempo you set without changing the pitch. Depending on how far you go up or down with the tempo, the loop you're stretching could sound right or real choppy. You might apply the elastic audio rhythm to a track in pro tools and be very pleased, till you pull the tempo down far enough that the kick happens then a second later the hi-hat etc.

Now that that's explained, (I did so so everyone can understand what the difference is between time stretch and pitch shifting), Recycle has a similar but different style of time stretch. It's more of "expanding the tails of your slices" then time stretching, because when you throw a sample in Recycle and create slice point and put it into a program like Reason, it uses the now longer tails to compensate for tempo adjustments. It doesn't change the pitch it just helps match for timing in the event that you do alter the tempo. I only use that for two reasons, 1) corrective 2) the extended tail sound is cool. I personally want to hear the pitch alter the speed of the sample in most cases, not necessarily keep it at it's original tempo. The flip side of the time stretch is that it works the other way too. Instead of stretching the tails, you can make the slices super tight by shortening the decay and turning the stretch to 0%. If you play the whole loop it will sound choppy, but the individual hits will sound on point.

The way the MPC pitch shifts is great because if you have ever tried to do this in pro tools, you know that you can only go so far or do it so much before the sound is now destroyed and riddled with artifacts. The MPC and programs like SoundHack do some of the illest pitch shifting handsdown, and that is how I handle my drums to fit. I have used elastic audio/warp point features before for samples and other things, but it's more in moderation then anything else. I don't like the idea of the tempo controlling the sample/sound like Patch Phrases. That is a really good feature, the Patch Phrasing on the MPC, but it's only really useful when using the whole loop, something I don't typically do. On the MPC I can pitch something down by -36 and be able to use it without it syncing to tempo. As far as making it sound unnatural, yes and no. If you timestretch then you can get it to sound like that same loop is being played at a slower/faster tempo. Which up to a certain point will sound very natural. But when you pitch shift, things can be slightly bigger/smaller hit depending on +/- pitch. If you do it excessively it can become a whole new sound which is something I totally support doing. I feel that Pitch Shifting should be applied to slices, and time stretching to loops. If you're looking for natural you might as well sample an actual drum kit. Since I actually mic'd up a drum kit and did that, I can tell first hand that while those "real" drum sounds are great, specifically the smaller percussion (tambs, hats etc), it can become real "Eagles" sounding. Not much character, but definitely it's own sound.

In short, there is a huge difference in time stretching and pitch shifting. I like to pitch shift for creative purposes, and time stretch for corrective purposes. At present I am good enough at chopping samples that time stretching is just a "dusty tool" in the toolbox as I find slicing/pitch shifting more effective for what I am doing.

Sidenote to bwest, when EQ'ing, you should try this trick called search and destroy. Take whatever sound you are trying to EQ, pick one band of the eq with all the others off, and make the Q as tight as possible. Then boost as much as possible. Now slowly sweep through the frequencies till you hear the resonant frequency. You're gonna hate me for saying this, but when you hear it you'll know ahhaha. I wish I could say it better then that, but you just have to hear it. When you find the resonance or unwanted frequency, (for snares it's typically the ringing), you then cut till that sound is no longer apparent in the mix. Keep your cuts somewhat light so that the areas around them are not greatly affected while still removing the unwanted sound. This is called notch filtering. This is a great tool for getting your drum sounds to be 1) better sounding 2) more your own sound 3) sit in the mix.

Nice post. I don't timestretch, I just chop up the samples and tempo the loop until it loops tight. As for pitching samples to help with the correction of time? interesting. I never thought about that before, but now that I do it makes complete sense. If you have a 2-bar sequence with 4 chops for example, and chop 2 wasn't exactly the 2 beats that you wanted it to be. What would you do? How would pitching help here? or would you have to pitch all the samples to make them fit?

[dkelloway]

bwest, check out this article by Sa'id: http://www.beattips.com/beattips/201...ight-long.html the drums on this soul jam smack!

[Castro Beats]

Nice post. I don't timestretch, I just chop up the samples and tempo the loop until it loops tight. As for pitching samples to help with the correction of time? interesting. I never thought about that before, but now that I do it makes complete sense. If you have a 2-bar sequence with 4 chops for example, and chop 2 wasn't exactly the 2 beats that you wanted it to be. What would you do? How would pitching help here? or would you have to pitch all the samples to make them fit?

Depending on what exactly we're chopping, if it's not the beats that you wanted it to be then I would suggest moving your slice first before any pitch or time modulation is applied. If moving the slice is either not an option or not working, then I would do a couple things. I might create a 5th slice on the second beat of the second chop as to isolate the "off-beat" and then step edit it to the right position. Then, (depending on your sample of course), I would look for just the "air" nothing else, sample it and apply it to any empty spaces I might have created by shifting the 2nd beat. In post-production this is called "fill-grit". If that didn't work I would try and slightly de-tune chop 2 just enough so that it drags and can make up the space or gets quicker (slowed down/sped up). I'm talking cents not a whole interval, on an MPC it would be the .00 (00.00 with the first two digits being whole intervals). If de-tuning it causes it to sound not right with the others then I would consider possibly pitch shifting all of them but there would be concessions like tempo and still potentially facing the problem of it now not matching with all the others. In that instance you're essentially slowing down or speeding up your problem because no matter what tempo, the off slice will still be off, just a a different pitch. In this case I might find myself using time stretch correctively. I might throw it into Recycle, re-do the chops, and then it would match the others no problem. Or even if a Pro Tools or Ableton, Cubase etc, some program/MPC that allows you to take a particular slice and stretch it without pitch being affected, usually done by "warp points", i.e the sensitivity meter in Recycle. Properly stretched, chop 2 would sit in the loop without complications.

[dkelloway]

Depending on what exactly we're chopping, if it's not the beats that you wanted it to be then I would suggest moving your slice first before any pitch or time modulation is applied. If moving the slice is either not an option or not working, then I would do a couple things. I might create a 5th slice on the second beat of the second chop as to isolate the "off-beat" and then step edit it to the right position. Then, (depending on your sample of course), I would look for just the "air" nothing else, sample it and apply it to any empty spaces I might have created by shifting the 2nd beat. In post-production this is called "fill-grit". If that didn't work I would try and slightly de-tune chop 2 just enough so that it drags and can make up the space or gets quicker (slowed down/sped up). I'm talking cents not a whole interval, on an MPC it would be the .00 (00.00 with the first two digits being whole intervals). If de-tuning it causes it to sound not right with the others then I would consider possibly pitch shifting all of them but there would be concessions like tempo and still potentially facing the problem of it now not matching with all the others. In that instance you're essentially slowing down or speeding up your problem because no matter what tempo, the off slice will still be off, just a a different pitch. In this case I might find myself using time stretch correctively. I might throw it into Recycle, re-do the chops, and then it would match the others no problem. Or even if a Pro Tools or Ableton, Cubase etc, some program/MPC that allows you to take a particular slice and stretch it without pitch being affected, usually done by "warp points", i.e the sensitivity meter in Recycle. Properly stretched, chop 2 would sit in the loop without complications.

Dope, I do use that "fill grit" technique that you mentioned on occasion when the time is right. Which MPC are you using?

[Castro Beats]

MPC-1K, little guy doing a big mans job ahah. For me, the sequencer is the bread and butter, it really is somewhat of a centerpiece.

[dkelloway]

MPC-1K, little guy doing a big mans job ahah. For me, the sequencer is the bread and butter, it really is somewhat of a centerpiece.

oh yeah, i'm rockign the 2000xl, i also use fl too, and i have an s950 lying around that i haven't really found the use for it that I wanted to.

[Sa'id]

I personally use Time Stretch when I'm doing Post production work (sound FX for movies) because it helps keep timing/pitch, but that's the only time I really use time stretch/elastic audio. My "time stretching" is typically done on the MPC by Up pitching or down pitching whatever I have on the pads to meet a certain length or just change the sound. The only difference is that this isn't really time stretching because it speeds up or slows down what you pitch. In Pro Tools/Cubase nowadays they have things like elastic audio, so you can create warp points (just like Recycle/Ableton) and it is able to adjust the loop to the tempo you set without changing the pitch. Depending on how far you go up or down with the tempo, the loop you're stretching could sound right or real choppy. You might apply the elastic audio rhythm to a track in pro tools and be very pleased, till you pull the tempo down far enough that the kick happens then a second later the hi-hat etc.

Now that that's explained, (I did so so everyone can understand what the difference is between time stretch and pitch shifting), Recycle has a similar but different style of time stretch. It's more of "expanding the tails of your slices" then time stretching, because when you throw a sample in Recycle and create slice point and put it into a program like Reason, it uses the now longer tails to compensate for tempo adjustments. It doesn't change the pitch it just helps match for timing in the event that you do alter the tempo. I only use that for two reasons, 1) corrective 2) the extended tail sound is cool. I personally want to hear the pitch alter the speed of the sample in most cases, not necessarily keep it at it's original tempo. The flip side of the time stretch is that it works the other way too. Instead of stretching the tails, you can make the slices super tight by shortening the decay and turning the stretch to 0%. If you play the whole loop it will sound choppy, but the individual hits will sound on point.

The way the MPC pitch shifts is great because if you have ever tried to do this in pro tools, you know that you can only go so far or do it so much before the sound is now destroyed and riddled with artifacts. The MPC and programs like SoundHack do some of the illest pitch shifting handsdown, and that is how I handle my drums to fit. I have used elastic audio/warp point features before for samples and other things, but it's more in moderation then anything else. I don't like the idea of the tempo controlling the sample/sound like Patch Phrases. That is a really good feature, the Patch Phrasing on the MPC, but it's only really useful when using the whole loop, something I don't typically do. On the MPC I can pitch something down by -36 and be able to use it without it syncing to tempo. As far as making it sound unnatural, yes and no. If you timestretch then you can get it to sound like that same loop is being played at a slower/faster tempo. Which up to a certain point will sound very natural. But when you pitch shift, things can be slightly bigger/smaller hit depending on +/- pitch. If you do it excessively it can become a whole new sound which is something I totally support doing. I feel that Pitch Shifting should be applied to slices, and time stretching to loops. If you're looking for natural you might as well sample an actual drum kit. Since I actually mic'd up a drum kit and did that, I can tell first hand that while those "real" drum sounds are great, specifically the smaller percussion (tambs, hats etc), it can become real "Eagles" sounding. Not much character, but definitely it's own sound.

In short, there is a huge difference in time stretching and pitch shifting. I like to pitch shift for creative purposes, and time stretch for corrective purposes. At present I am good enough at chopping samples that time stretching is just a "dusty tool" in the toolbox as I find slicing/pitch shifting more effective for what I am doing.

Sidenote to bwest, when EQ'ing, you should try this trick called search and destroy. Take whatever sound you are trying to EQ, pick one band of the eq with all the others off, and make the Q as tight as possible. Then boost as much as possible. Now slowly sweep through the frequencies till you hear the resonant frequency. You're gonna hate me for saying this, but when you hear it you'll know ahhaha. I wish I could say it better then that, but you just have to hear it. When you find the resonance or unwanted frequency, (for snares it's typically the ringing), you then cut till that sound is no longer apparent in the mix. Keep your cuts somewhat light so that the areas around them are not greatly affected while still removing the unwanted sound. This is called notch filtering. This is a great tool for getting your drum sounds to be 1) better sounding 2) more your own sound 3) sit in the mix.

Castro,

Excellent breakdown! Bravo!!!
I particularly like your explanation for when, how, and why you use pitch shift and time stretch: "...pitch shift for creative purposes, and time stretch for corrective purposes;" and "Pitch Shifting should be applied to slices, and time stretching to loops."

I certainly see the advantages to this approach. I'm sure that you probably even have found some ways to use time stretch creatively as well...
For me, I've practically never used timestretch on loops; I have, however, used it on various sounds that I wanted to elongate and sustain, but that's about it.

One reason that I try to avoid timestretch, and, instead, rely more on tempo, is because of control. Part of my approach—especially when it comes to sequencing and arranging—is to try and *control* all of the musical elements that I use, in a way that encourages me to rely on my DJ background. Timestretch is certainly a great tool, and you're are absolutely right: As far as correction goes, it can smooth out sound flaws and time issues.

When I went through my experimental phase with timestretch, I learned how to *drag* faster tempos and *push* (shuffle) slower tempos. However, I also soon figured out how to do the exact same thing, by doing things like modifying the tempo; re-recording certain sections of the drum framework with timing correct turned off; inserting elongated sound-stabs where the timing wasn't quite *right*, etc. Thing is, I never want my drums to sound *perfect*, I just want them to *move* and *feel* right. Also, I should mention that at the time when I was experimenting with time stretch, I didn't know if I was on the right course or not; I just knew that I didn't like *relying* on time stretch as some others. Then I spoke to DJ Premier about it, and he told me the instances in which he liked to used timestretch. Since I was using it similar to how he described his use of it, I continued my move away from it, as my drum frameworks had already taken on the sort of swing and shuffle that I like. Even still, if I'm making a beat and I believe that timestretching something will be useful, I won't hesitate to rock with it.

—Sa'id

[bwest]

bwest,

Did you layer drum sounds in the mix, are did you layer some drum sounds, prior to inserting them into the beat?

—Sa'id

After I listen to them to see if it sounds like what i'm looking for... its always in the mix....

Sidenote to bwest, when EQ'ing, you should try this trick called search and destroy. Take whatever sound you are trying to EQ, pick one band of the eq with all the others off, and make the Q as tight as possible. Then boost as much as possible. Now slowly sweep through the frequencies till you hear the resonant frequency. You're gonna hate me for saying this, but when you hear it you'll know ahhaha. I wish I could say it better then that, but you just have to hear it. When you find the resonance or unwanted frequency, (for snares it's typically the ringing), you then cut till that sound is no longer apparent in the mix. Keep your cuts somewhat light so that the areas around them are not greatly affected while still removing the unwanted sound. This is called notch filtering. This is a great tool for getting your drum sounds to be 1) better sounding 2) more your own sound 3) sit in the mix.

Thanks Castro that makes sense and i've done it before but it wasnt something that i used strategically or really knew what i was doing.... i'll add that to my "things to use"

[Castro Beats]

re-recording certain sections of the drum framework with timing correct turned off; inserting elongated sound-stabs where the timing wasn't quite *right*, etc.

It's things like this I feel people don't do anymore, thus giving us the listeners the same bounce on every beat. I believe in the practice of no quantize, not on everything per say, but things that you can apply it to without it messing up your down beat. Definitely on the same page.

BWest, no problem man, I'm glad I can help.

[dafingaz]

Once you find you drum sounds that you like, use them to make your own. For example, just take one day, or even a couple of hours going through your sounds. I will use ProTools as an example, but you can pretty much do it however you want. Open up a ProTools session. Load up about 4 or 5 kick drum sounds. Play them individually. Then play two of them at the same time. If you like the way it sounds, save it and you have just created your own kick. It doesn't stop there. Next, mess with some eq or effects such as distortion or reverb. Save everything you like as a new drum sound. Maybe add 3 kicks together and add eq and fx to 1 of the kicks. Throw in a hi hat to see if you like how the hi hats blend with the kick. This is essentially layering, but using layering to create your own custom sounds, even from sampled sounds. Just try it out for an hour and see how you like it!...

[bwest]

good look man... i've been trying to layer all the sounds in the mix and i cant seem to get ones i like too much...